- REI is on a rare sale. Don't miss. Patagonia's are like up to 70% off...
This article is moved to https://outdoorcrunch.com/micro-nano-puff-vs-down-sweater/.
In FW23, Patagonia revised both of Micro Puff and Down Sweater. See updates:
Highlights of the Down Sweater update:
- Fill weight is increased from 104 grams to 150 grams (main update),
- Number of internal drop-in pockets has been increased from 1 to 2,
- Outer fabric is now NetPlus (recycled waste) shell.
Highlights of the Micro Puff update:
- Number of internal drop-in pockets has been increased from 1 to 2,
- Outer fabric is now NetPlus (recycled waste) shell.
There has also been small changes made in the colors, fit and hood sizes.
FW23 Down Sweater (Men's - Women's). Probably one of the greatest and most popular casual down jackets out there.
Patagonia's Down Sweater and Micro Puff are both light, packable, warm and fantastic all-doer casual jackets. Depending on the weather, they both can be used as mid-layers or stand alone pieces. They're pretty much identical in terms of best use.
Their main difference lies in their methods of insulation: Down vs Synthetic.
Down Sweater is warmer than the Micro Puff, but since down loses insulating power under wet conditions, only consider it for dry areas. Micro Puff, on the other hand, is more weather resistant (owing to its synthetic insulation), lighter and more packable than the Down Sweater.
Additionally, if you're planning to perform high output activities more than, say, once every two weeks, then neither of these jackets would cut it for you - even the Micro Puff (fragile outer fabric and mediocre breathability).
So, in that case, consider getting Patagonia DAS Light Hoody (Men's - Women's) and Patagonia Nano Air (Men's - Women's).
Links:
- Micro Puff:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-hoody/84031.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-jacket/84066.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-hoody/84041.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-jacket/84071.html
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-insulated-jacket-womens
- Down Sweater:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater-hoody/84702.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater/84675.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater-hoody/84712.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater/84684.html
- https://www.rei.com/product/208593/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208409/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-womens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208592/patagonia-down-sweater-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208408/patagonia-down-sweater-womens
Also check out their temperature ratings below.
Read more at:
- Working principles of insulated jackets: https://outdoorcrunch.com/jackets/
- CLO Values: https://outdoorcrunch.com/clo-values/
- Best Patagonia jackets: https://outdoorcrunch.com/best-patagonia-jackets/
I've also talked to the Patagonia Customer Service about Micro Puff vs Down Sweater, and shared the screenshots here in this post.
The motivation behind trying to come up with a brand new insulation technique (which, ended up being synthetic insulation) was to defy the two strong disadvantages of down (used in Down Sweater):
- Loss of insulating capability when it's wet/damp out.
- Delayed warmth after putting it on.
Overcoming these disadvantages comes with its own costs and downsides - which eventually made up the disadvantages of synthetic insulation (used in the Micro Puff):
- Fragile face fabric (specific to Micro Puff),
- Loss of insulating capability after 3-4 years.
These are the 4 key points to consider.
- Poll results: Giant Arc'teryx & Patagoina survey (Gore-Tex, pockets, hoods, fit, & more) [1000+ participated]
- Pics from outrageous discounts I ran into at Arc'teryx Parndorf Outlet
- I bought Gamma Lightweight (aka SL), Gamma (aka LT) and Gamma MX
- Patera Parka (one year update): Ain't worth the price...
- Alpha vs Beta: I bought all 4 Beta's and both Alpha's. Settling this for good
- I visited Iceland again, this time with a Nuclei (aka FL)
- Proton Hybrid: A "hidden" way to stuff it in itself!?
- Best Insulated Jackets: A hands-on Arc'teryx & Patagonia face-off
- 2024 Nano Air is in! Bought it immediately...
- I bought all 7 of Winter '24 Atom and Proton jackets
- Best Arc'teryx Ski Jackets: Rush is ideal, Sabre SV is overkill
- Arc’teryx colors: Most and least liked (poll results)
- Took my Nuclei SV to the Alps near Pfander, Austria
- Arc'teryx Alpha Parka Review: The most impressive jacket of all time
- Arc'teryx ReGEAR: OutdoorCrunch exclusive promo code!
- Beta Insulated Jacket is in: Pit zips AND two way zipper
- DropHood vs StormHood: Pros/cons and best uses
- 7 things all Arc'teryx newbies should know
Like hauntingly dark yet brilliantly brilliant electronic music? Check out my Hidden Electronic Gems playlist at Spotify.
- Macai Shell: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/macai-shell-jacket
- Nita: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/womens/nita-down-jacket
- Epsilon: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/epsilon-insulated-hoody
- Cerium Pants (yes, seriously): https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/cerium-pant
- Liatris: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/womens/liatris-down-jacket
- Thorium SV: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/thorium-sv-hoody
- Proton Heavyweight: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/proton-heavyweight-hoody
- Atom Shacket: https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/womens/atom-shacket
- New Nano Air: https://patagonia.com/product/mens-nano-air-insulated-hoody/84367.html
The second point of Micro Puff is typically looked at as a disadvantage of sleeping bags and quilts with synthetic insulation, and often not so much of the clothing since (1) most of us tend to renew our casual wear wardrobe much more often than our outdoor gear and (2) the wearing out occurs each time the jacket is stuffed into its own sack - rather than occurring simply as the time passes.
That's why, if you're planning to use your Micro Puff or Down Sweater mostly casually when it's cold out in the neighborhood (which is what they are mostly designed for anyway), then I'd recommend you to forget about the second disadvantage of Micro Puff.
For a mostly dry weather use, Down Sweater can be a better choice since its down insulation will last years longer than the Micro Puff.
If, on the other hand, you're planning to wear them when skiing, traveling, hiking and/or camping for a fair amount of time, then I'd recommend you to keep this disadvantage in your minds as you read on since packability can't be completely overlooked in your case.
Warmth
For folks who are unaware of the basic working principle of Down Sweater's down insulation, here's a two sentence introduction first (this is important).
Down provides warmth by heating and holding on to the air cluster trapped within its vacant spots. Synthetic insulation in the Micro Puff basically tries and mimics this exact process of down - but via artificial, man-made equipment (65 grams of PlumaFill).
So, the higher the total volume of these empty spots inside the down, the more the air is going to be heated, and hence the provided warmth will be higher. Because the down's ability to loft gets lost as it gets wet, so does its ability to trap/heat more air.
Ultimately, its warmth will be impacted negatively.
I'm 5'11", 165 lbs, athletic build. Size M fits me perfectly.
My size is always the same. Arc'teryx, Patagonia, TNF, Salomon, Columbia, Nike, Adidas, Under Armour, Zara... Doesn't matter.
This working principle is also why the fully extended volume of (dry) down is a crucial metric (referred to as FP) and determines the down's quality, warmth potential, durability and price tag.
800 FP down of our Down Sweater will feel much warmer, prove solid performance for more years and hence also be a more expensive pick than a 700 FP down.
To my knowledge, FP numbers start from 450 and goes up to 950. This makes the 800 FP down of Down Sweater one of the highest quality fills in today's world.
This doesn't mean that it's impossible to manufacture a clothing piece using a rather low quality (say, 500 FP down) and make it quite warm. You perfectly can - but you'd just have to stuff a bunch of it - quite a bit more than the amount it would take if you had used a 800 FP down instead.
Read more at:
- Working principles of insulated jackets: https://outdoorcrunch.com/jackets/
- CLO Values: https://outdoorcrunch.com/clo-values/
- Best Patagonia jackets: https://outdoorcrunch.com/best-patagonia-jackets/
Delayed warmth
As grueling as it sounds, this entire process of the down heating and holding on to the air cluster... takes time. Longer than the synthetic insulation.
This makes up one of the two disadvantages of the Down Sweater laid out above. You don't get to feel the cozy warmth the moment you put on your Down Sweater.
With the Micro Puff, though; it doesn't take that much until the maximum potential warmth is achieved. The difference is noticeable.
Center back length
The Down Sweater is extremely short, which affects its warmth. This can be a disadvantage if you aren't planning to insulate your legs, so keep that in mind.
Links:
- Micro Puff:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-hoody/84031.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-jacket/84066.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-hoody/84041.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-jacket/84071.html
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-insulated-jacket-womens
- Down Sweater:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater-hoody/84702.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater/84675.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater-hoody/84712.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater/84684.html
- https://www.rei.com/product/208593/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208409/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-womens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208592/patagonia-down-sweater-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208408/patagonia-down-sweater-womens
Durability
And this, is the disadvantage of Micro Puff.
I know I've kept saying that the insulating power of Down Sweater can last for decades (much shorter for the Micro Puff), and that's true; but there's one more parameter there:
- How often are you going to be stuffing them into their own sacks?
The quicker loss of Micro Puff's insulation capability doesn't occur when these jackets are simply at rest.
Instead, it occurs each time you stuff the Micro Puff into its own sack and then release it back. The more you do this cycle, the quicker it'll get old.
For the Down Sweater, on the other hand, it doesn't really matter, since its insulation is very durable. So you can stop worrying about it and instead use the stuff sack freely (which you'll also do with the Micro Puff anyway... so it'll get older quicker).
Regardless of the insulation, face fabric of Micro Puff is also fairly fragile.
Weather Resistance
Micro Puff is more weather resistant than Down Sweater. Not only does it stand better against wind and precipitation, but its warmth also doesn't decrease when the jacket gets wet (which, as mentioned earlier, isn't the case with Down Sweater).
The difference isn't huge, by the way, but definitely is noticeable.
By the way, they're both coated with DWR.
DWR is a coating.
It's basically sprayed on to the surface of these jackets as a finish.
It stands for Durable Water Repellent - which means that water will be repelled under wet conditions instead of soaking into the fabric.
DWR also decreases dry time.
It's a good thing these jackets are coated in DWR.
But pay attention to the fact that DWR is a coating - meaning that it will wear off over time.
Which is why you might want to invest in a DWR spray such as this one at arcteryx.com for after treatment.
As you see, there's a strong correlation between FP x FW and temperature ratings, but not more than, say, 80%. I explained why this happens here in this post of mine.
Yes, the DWR does help with preventing the rain drops from getting soaked into the internal surface of the Down Sweater, but doesn't help so much with its warmth.
Again, once the fill gets wet, its warmth will drop significantly. Depending on the precipitation, the water will get in, too.
Pockets
Both offer 2 internal drop-in pockets (large enough to fit 110 mm skins) and 2 external hand warmer pockets.
Breathability
Face fabric of Micro Puff (0.7-oz 10-denier shell and lining) breathes slightly better than the Down Sweater (1.4-oz 20x30-denier shell and 1.4-oz 20-denier lining).
But, neither of these jackets are designed to breathe and hence are terrible in this department. They're not equipped with pit zips either, so I'd recommend you to forget about getting these jackets if breathability is one of your expectations.
Check out Nano Air (Men's - Women's) in that case.
Style
To most people, Down Sweater looks prettier (especially this Carbon color is liked by many - including me).
Micro Puff... I don't know. Looks overly wrinkled and pretty bad. At least to me.
Weight and Packability
Micro Puff offers an exceptional level of warmth to weight ratio. This is a bit strange because you'd actually expect this from a down product first and synthetic product second.
Micro Puff is the lightest and most packable synthetic insulated puffy in Patagonia's line-up.
Links:
- Micro Puff:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-hoody/84031.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-micro-puff-jacket/84066.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-hoody/84041.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-micro-puff-jacket/84071.html
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-jacket-mens
- https://www.backcountry.com/patagonia-micro-puff-hooded-insulated-jacket-womens
- Down Sweater:
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater-hoody/84702.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-down-sweater/84675.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater-hoody/84712.html
- https://www.patagonia.com/product/womens-down-sweater/84684.html
- https://www.rei.com/product/208593/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208409/patagonia-down-sweater-hoodie-womens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208592/patagonia-down-sweater-mens
- https://www.rei.com/product/208408/patagonia-down-sweater-womens
My discussion with the Patagonia Rep
Here are the screenshots I took. Reps can sometimes provide inaccurate information or even flat out incorrect "facts" every now and then - so take the info in this conversation with a grain of salt.
Would you take the atom ar over the micro puff when you consider: style, fit, durability, weight to warmth and packability?
Thank you for your comment Benoit!
When warmth to weight ratio and packability are a concern, it’s hard to beat the Micro Puff.
I have a micro puff. But after a couple of months i am not happy with the fit ( to wide on the chest) and i cant get over the shiny fabric. I am worried about the durability over the years aswel. For now i use it for casual walks outer layer and as a midlayer when cold and wet. Or as a throw over jacket at camp for warmth.
I am willing to let it go and get the atom AR instead, warmer and better fit i think. Okay its not as packable but i saw arcteryx promo film on how to pack it in the sleeve. I climb mount meru and kili in september and would use it as back up and to throw on at rest stops. For me its not weight thats an issue its the size of the ‘package’ .
Does it ressemble?