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camping

Best Backpacking Mess Kit

Last updated: August 17, 2022 by Canberk Koksal

Imagine this:

You just reached your campground after a 8 hour hike with a 40-lbs pack, you're hungry and just want to fry up some food. You want your pan to be quick to heat and cook evenly and clean easily. I’ve had experiences with some rubbish pans that were okay to cook with but a pain in the a** to clean.

Having a good mess kit (or a cook set) is a lifesaver. Whether you’re on the trail or on a camping trip with a group of friends, what you eat determines your mood, which can be the most fun or the most dreaded part of camping - depending on your equipment.

Table of Contents
GSI Pinnacle Camper Cookset
GSI Pinnacle vs Bugaboo
MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set
GSI Pinnacle Backpacker Cookset
Snow Peak Titanium Multi Compact Cookset
Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set
How to choose the right mess kit for you?
Do you really need a mess kit?
What are the criteria for choosing?
What’s in it?
Versatility
Material
Compactness and Weight
Caring and Cleaning
References

In this article we take a look at 5 different mess kits and compare them on their materials, size and what they include.

But before we get to the bolts and nuts of mess kits, here's a quick summary:

The best overall option is the complete GSI Pinnacle Camper set, which has everything you could ever need. Best one for 2 backpackers is MSR Quick 2 System Cookset because of its versatility, it’s a great set that will last you many years of backpacking and camping. Next is the backpacking version of Pinnacle Camper, that is, GSI Pinnacle Backpacker, while this set has the same high quality materials and design, I'd prefer to get the Camper and leave a few items at home. Snow Peak Titanium Cookset is the ultralight hikers dream with only 11.2 oz weight. Finally Winterial Camping Cookware | $39.99 is a great beginners option that has a durable pot and pan with lots of small accessories.

GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Camper Cooking Set for Camping and...
310 Reviews
GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Camper Cooking Set for Camping and...
  • Cooking & mess kit: The Pinnacle Camper is a...
  • All in one: Includes 4 plates, 4 insulated mugs...
  • Non-stick cookware: The durable, anodized aluminum...
  • Durable dish set: Plates, bowls and mugs made from...
  • Smart design: Folding, removable handle locks...
$159.95
Buy on Amazon
 

For their details and best uses, check out the chart below. If you're only looking for a backpacking frying pan, check out this article of mine.

  • Cool info but I wish I didn't have to cook man...

I've got you covered! Check out my article for no cook, no refrigeration camping foods.

After this chart, you'll find everything I've laid out in detail which I think can be important when you're considering buying one.

Turn your phone sideways for a much better table display!

GSI Pinnacle Camper

MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set

GSI Pinnacle Backpacker

Snow Peak Trek 1400 Titanium Cookset

Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set

Overall Score

88/100
87/100
82/100
78/100
68/100

GSI Pinnacle Camper

MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set

GSI Pinnacle Backpacker

Snow Peak Trek 1400 Titanium Cookset

Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set

Best for

...those who are looking for a complete backpacking mess kit

...two backpackers

Cell

...ultralighters

...beginners

GSI Pinnacle Camper

MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set

GSI Pinnacle Backpacker

Snow Peak Trek 1400 Titanium Cookset

Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set

Pros

Has everything, high quality nonstick, durable

Versatile, no metal-to-metal contact, durable

Alternative to Pinnacle Camper: High quality nonstick and durable

Extremely light, compact, simple

Includes kettle, lightweight

Cons

Bulky and heavy

Not the best for more than 2, a bit heavy for backpacking

For most, there's no reason to buy this one instead of Pinnacle Camper

Need to be treated gently, can be small for some

Accessories unnecessary, low quality nonstick (may scratch)

GSI Pinnacle Camper

MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set

GSI Pinnacle Backpacker

Snow Peak Trek 1400 Titanium Cookset

Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set

What's in it?

  • 3L Pot
  • 2L Pot
  • 9” Fry Pan
  • 2 Strainer lids
  • 4 Plates
  • 4 Bowls
  • 4 Mugs with sippy tops
  • Wash Basin
  • 1.5L non-stick pot
  • 2.5L pot
  • Strainer lid
  • Plates
  • 2 Mugs with sippy tops
  • Pot Handle
    • 2L Pot
    • 8” Fry Pan
    • Strainer Lid
    • 2 Bowls
    • 2 Mugs with sippy tops
    • Wash Basin
    • 1L Pot
    • 0.78L Pot
    • 17 oz Fry Pan
    • 12 oz Fry Pan
    • 1.9L Pot
    • Fry Pan
    • Tea kettle
    • Bowl
    • Serving spoon
    • Spatula
    • Cleaning sponge
    • Carry bag

    Material

    Hard Anodized Aluminum & PolyPropylene

    Hard Anodized Aluminum & PolyPropylene

    Hard Anodized Aluminum & PolyPropylene

    Titanium

    Aluminum Oxide with Teflon Coating

    Now let's get to the individual reviews.

    GSI Pinnacle Camper Cookset

    • Weight: 3.63 lbs 
    • Size: 9.1 x 9.1 x 5.8 in
    • Includes: 3-liter pot, 2-liter pot, 9" frypan, 2 nylon strainer lids, four 14 fl. oz. insulated mugs, four 14 fl. oz. bowls, four 7.5" plates, 4 sip through lids, a folding pot handle, and a stuff sack/welded sink

    All of these items fit inside the large pot.

    GSI Pinnacle Camper is perfect for up to groups of 4 and it has everything you could need. The set has almost everything, so you can cook anything.

    Volume wise, the two 3L and 2L pots are great for cooking for 4. There are plates, bowls and mugs with sippy tops for everyone and they are all color coded. No more mixing mugs or eating from the wrong plate.

    When the set is packed everything fits neatly into the 3L pot and can be stowed in the stuff sack. Even the stuff sack doubles as a wash basin. The coating of the sack allows you to fill it up with water and a little bit of soap to easily wash your set without wasting water.

    What I really like about this set is that the quality of each of the products. The pots and pan are made of hard anodized aluminum that is more durable and efficient than regular aluminum. The fry pan also has Teflon Radiance non stick coating that is scratch resistant and durable.

    The handle can attach securely to each of these items. The plates and bowls are made of polypropylene that is heat resistant and is even dishwasher safe!

    This set definitely offers the most versatility for your cooking. You could cook almost everything you would be able to cook at home with test set. My only concern would be that once you fill up the 3L pot it gets quite heavy and lifting it with a single handle is challenging.

    Of course the other downside of this set is that it’s quite heavy but it’s not designed for anyone to take to a solo backpacking trip! If you’re with less than 4 people you can leave few items at home and decrease the weight.

    This set is very versatile as you can use it with a group of friends (up to 4, or even 5) on a comfortable camping trip while having a great meal or having a small cocktail after dinner while playing my top verbal campfire games in the night!

    GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Camper Cooking Set for Camping and...
    310 Reviews
    GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Camper Cooking Set for Camping and...
    • Cooking & mess kit: The Pinnacle Camper is a...
    • All in one: Includes 4 plates, 4 insulated mugs...
    • Non-stick cookware: The durable, anodized aluminum...
    • Durable dish set: Plates, bowls and mugs made from...
    • Smart design: Folding, removable handle locks...
    $159.95
    Buy on Amazon

    GSI Pinnacle vs Bugaboo

    One of the most common comparison is made between Pinnacle and Bugaboo models of GSI.

    GSI Bugaboo Camper has the exact same appearance and design as the GSI Pinnacle Camper but the quality of the materials are slightly different. Both the pot and especially the fry pan of Pinnacle has a better quality. The non-stick material used in Bugaboo is regular teflon whereas the coating on Pinnacle is teflon radiance. 

    While both of them perform quite well at the beginning, the increased technology of the Pinnacle series makes it the better choice for long term. Also, the pot from Pinnacle boils water much faster. The other materials of the set are identical. For these reasons I think GSI Pinnacle Camper is the much better set and that is why I included that one in the review.

    MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set

    • Weight: 1 lbs 12 oz
    • Size: 7.75 x 7.75 x 5 in
    • Includes: 1.5L hard-anodized non-stick aluminum pot, 2.5L hard-anodized aluminum pot, strainer lid, 2 deep dish plates, 2 insulated mugs, pot handle

    All of these items fit inside the large pot.

    This beautiful set by MSR is perfect for two both for backpacking or car-camping. The set contains two pots: one 1.5L hard-anodized non-stick aluminum pot and one 2.5L hard-anodized aluminum pot. There are also two 0.3L mugs and two 0.75L deep plates that double as bowls.

    The lid of the pots doubles as a strainer and it even has a small latch that prevents the lid from falling off during straining. The talon pot handle folds on top two secure the packed pot and it can also detach to be used with the smaller pot.

    The non-stick 1.5L pot can also be used to fry things without going crazy trying to clean the surface. The plates of this set also double as bowls due to how deep they are. I think this versatility of this set is the best part.

    At first glance you might be wondering why are the plates plastic, doesn’t that make them less durable? However, I realized that there is really cool reason behind this. Besides decreasing the overall weight, the plastic plates protect the two pans from scratching each other. None of the metal parts in this set touch each other making the overall set pretty long lasting.

    All of the items in this set nest perfectly. The only thing missing I would say are two sets of cutlery. But if you have foldable sporks, they could easily fit inside the mugs. Another great news, if you think this set lacks a frying pan, it can nest in the inside of MSR Quick Skillet that I reviewed here.

    This great set is my top choice for 2 because of its ease of use and versatility. Almost all of the items serve dual purposes and everything packs into the 2.5L pot super compactly. For people who can’t choose between backpacking and luxury camping MSR Quick 2 System is the perfect sweet spot.

    SALE
    MSR Quick 2 Camping Cook Set
    285 Reviews
    MSR Quick 2 Camping Cook Set
    • Two-person backpacking cookset is lightweight (1...
    • Includes 1.5L hard-anodized non-stick aluminum...
    • Camp cookware features a smaller non-stick coated...
    • Polypropylene deep-dish plates can accommodate any...
    • All cook set components nest within the 2.5L pot...
    −$28.22 $96.73
    Buy on Amazon

    GSI Pinnacle Backpacker Cookset

    • Weight: 1.8 lbs
    • Size: 8.2 x 8.2 x 5.4 in
    • Includes: 2-liter pot, 8” frypan, a nylon strainer lid, 2 insulated mugs, 2 sip through lids, 2 nesting bowls, a folding pot handle, and stuff/sink sack

    In the “backpacker” version of GSI Pinnacle, you get the same quality items as the “camper” version but you get a more compact and lightweight set. This set only has the 2L pot and a smaller 8 inch version of the Teflon Radiance coated non-stick fry pan. 

    It also has two bowls, two insulated mugs with sippy tops and a lid that functions as a strainer. The lid has the orange tab to easily pick it up and silicone sides that protect the sides of the pot.

    While this set is smaller and almost half the weight of GSI Pinnacle Camper it’s still borderline heavy for backpacking. Just like MSR Quick 2 System, this set transitions easily from car camping to backpacking. For the added weight, you definitely get a lot of comfort. Having a luxurious set allows you to cook faster, eat better and clean easier after a long hike.

    If you’re interested, this set has just enough space to also fit the GSI Crossover Kitchen Kit, which is available on Amazon. For an extra 6 lbs you get a cutting board, towel, soap bottle, scrubby pad, tongs, spoon, spatula, spicer, oil bottle and a tote bag that fits all of these. In my opinion none of these are necessities for backpacking but they’re very convenient luxuries while car camping.

    You could also use the leftover space to your liking, it’s a bit oddly shaped so you wouldn’t be able to fit a canister there but other stove accessories might fit.

    While this set is also pretty great, I'd go for GSI Pinnacle Camper and just create my own set for backpacking. Of course, it doesn’t pack as compactly as the backpacker does but it gives you more options. My suggestion would be to go with the camper if you frequently camp with 4 people and go with this one if you exclusively camp with 2.

    GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Backpacker, Nesting Cook Set,...
    46 Reviews
    GSI Outdoors, Pinnacle Backpacker, Nesting Cook Set,...
    • Tested technology: The Pinnacle Backpacker coating...
    • Perfect for two: An ideal set to cook for two....
    • Easy to store and clean: All ingeniously designed...
    • Cook with confidence: Folding gripper locks on to...
    • It's all about the outdoors: In 1985 three...
    $99.95
    Buy on Amazon

    Snow Peak Titanium Multi Compact Cookset

    • Weight: 11.6 oz
    • Size: 6.2 x 4 in
    • Includes: A 47 fl. oz. (1.4 liter) titanium pot, a small titanium fry pan and a nylon mesh storage sack

    It’s unbelievable how lightweight this set is! With only 0.75 lbs extra in your pack you get two pots and two lids that double as fry pans and plates. If you’re an ultralight hiker that doesn’t want to eat trail mix for a week this is your set.

    A quick warning before we get into the details: this set isn’t for beginners. There is no non-stick coating on this set. While the titanium is super lightweight and you don’t have to worry about any chemicals leaching into your food, you have to be careful not to burn your food. You have to be quite gentle during cooking and cleaning. I would also recommend using a generous amount of oil during frying things.

    Titanium really excels when you boil things because of how fast it conducts heat. However, it also forms hot spots making it not the best choice for frying. However, if you’re an ultralight hiker you’re probably not preparing super fancy meals so it still works out nicely. Another plus this set has is that you can fit a small canister (110g) inside the small pot while you pack. You might also want to include a set of cutlery and it should fit inside small pot. 

    I don’t love the handles of these pans because they are also made of metal but it’s neat that each item has its own handle. I understand that these simple handles are for decreasing the weight and bulk. If the pot handle gets too hot you can use a rag to hold it.

    One last thing that might become a problem is that this set is quite small. If you're with more than two people it will definitely be too small. So maybe just consider this set for a solo or duo trip. For a short solo trip you can also just take the small pot and fry pan for an even lighter set!

    Best option out there for ultralighter folks.

    Snow Peak Trek 1400 Camping Cook Set - Durable & Ultralight...
    809 Reviews
    Snow Peak Trek 1400 Camping Cook Set - Durable & Ultralight...
    • Versatile Camping Cookware: Use in your outdoor...
    • Essential Cookware Piece: Ultralight camping pot...
    • Includes Frying Pan: Non-stick frying pan doubles...
    • Outdoor Dining Bliss: Enjoy the outdoors with our...
    • Snow Peak: Our backpacking and camping products...
    $59.70
    Buy on Amazon

    Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set

    • Weight: 1.5 lbs
    • Size: 6.75 x 6.75 x 3.5 in
    • Includes: 1.9L pot, fry pan, tea kettle, bowl, serving spoon, spatula, cleaning sponge, carry bag

    This set contains a bunch of interesting items. It has the classics like a 1.9L pot with a lid and a high-walled fry pan. It also has a convenient teapot, soup ladle, bowl, spoon, spatula, cleaning sponge and a carry bag. While the main items of the set are of a durable aluminum oxide with teflon coating, the quality of the accessories are questionable.

    As a serious tea and coffee drinker I love the addition of a teapot. I know that you can also boil water in pot with a lid but this is so much more convenient. Boiling water in a kettle is both faster than a pot and pouring the water into your cup is easier. However, I would have liked it more if the set had an insulated mug instead of the other random stuff.

    Honestly, some of the accessories this set comes with are a bit unnecessary. What am I supposed to use that tiny bowl for? I would get rid of the cheap plastic ladle, spoon, cup etc. and use the space inside the kettle to store a small stove. However, you can take the full set on your first trip and see what you use for yourself. Even though I enjoyed the tea kettle, you could make a much lighter set without it.

    Overall I think this is a great set for beginners to try out cooking outdoors and see what they use and what they don’t. Starting out with a decent set is much better than getting a cheap plastic set that will fall apart in the middle of a trip.

    SALE
    Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set 10 Piece Set For...
    619 Reviews
    Winterial Camping Cookware and Pot Set 10 Piece Set For...
    • ONLY 1.5lbs: this lightweight camping cookware set...
    • PACKS UP SMALL AND COMPACT: All of the pieces of...
    • 10 PIECE SET: The Open Fire Cookware pot, frying...
    • NON-STICK COATING: Each piece of our cookware set...
    • TOP THIRD PARTY RATED: OutdoorGearLab consumers...
    −$20.00 $39.99
    Buy on Amazon

    How to choose the right mess kit for you?

    Do you really need a mess kit?

    Okay, this is the main question you should ask yourself and there are a few others. How long will you be camping for? Are you hiking or just camping? How many people are you with? How important is having a good meal?

    If you’re hiking an intense trail by yourself, carrying a mess kit might feel like too much. You could always just eat dried or canned foods. I have an in-depth article on no cook foods on the trail foods on the trail.

    No cook doesn’t just mean crackers and trail mix, there are many different types of cheeses and meats you could take without refrigeration. Of course there is also the hiking classic: peanut butter, energy and happiness in a bite.

    Of course you could also opt to eat less and try out some techniques to feel fuller on the trail but having a good snack and meal is what keeps me going on long days of hiking. Eating a warm cooked meal after a long day of activities is definitely more satisfying. Especially if you’re with a group cooking becomes one of the main social activities.

    What are the criteria for choosing?

    What’s in it?

    There is no clear definition on what a mess kit should include but they usually have pot, some of fry pan and/or bowls, plates, mugs etc. You could also choose to collect these items on their own and build your own mess kit but there is no guarantee that they will pack perfectly as pre-arranged ones. I’m still amazed at how GSI Pinnacle Camper packs the way it does.

    Buying a pre-made mess kit can also be cheaper than buying individual items. However, if you know that you only need a fry pan for a good meal go for that instead. A pre-made mess kit is also great for beginners that have no experience cooking outdoors. This way you can test out what you actually use.

    There is also the customizing option. You take out or add things to your mess kit. For example depending on how many people you’re with you might not need all 4 of those mugs or that extra pot. You could also fit butane canisters or stoves inside the sets if there is space left.

    There is also such a thing as too much when it comes to mess kits. Winterial Camping Cookware has many small accessories that are not essential. Even though the set is already pretty lightweight you could make it lighter by taking them out.

    None of these sets come with cutlery, you can add a spork for versatility. You might also want 1-2 water bottles and a thermos depending on the season. You can check out my review of water bottles.

    Versatility

    While specialized items are sometimes surprisingly useful like the tea kettle of Winterial Camping Cookware, it’s very important to have multi-use tools while camping. The models from GSI and MSR have lids that double as strainers. The small pot from MSR Quick 2 System has a non-stick surface so it doubles as a fry pan. The fry pans from Snow Peak Cookset double as the lids for the pots. And the most surprising of them all the stuff sack from GSI Pinnacle Camper doubles as a wash basin!

    In terms of versatility my favourite is MSR Quick 2 System because almost every item serves multiple purposes. The lid is a strainer. The small pot is also a fry pan. The plates have very deep walls that allow them to be used as plates. The handle can attach to both the pots and the mugs can be used to store extra food. In my opinion this set is also the best at transitioning from backpacking to car camping.

    It’s all about hitting that sweet spot between comfort and weight. The more functions a single item serves the less you have to carry. That’s why a swiss army knife is the best tool for campers.

    Material

    There are three main materials used in cookware: aluminum, titanium and stainless steel. The accents may be different types of plastic or silicone. They each have their perks.

    Snow Peak Multi Compact Cookset is made of titanium which is the highest quality material on the market. It’s extremely lightweight and you don’t get a metallic flavor in your food after you’ve used it. Titanium is also a quite durable material because doesn’t rust!

    Stainless steel is the most durable and there are no health concerns. However, it’s also the heaviest so it’s not the best idea to take a full stainless steel set backpacking. Another perk of stainless steel is that you can probably use it over open fires like a campfire. If you won't use them on the open fire though, check out my backpacking stove comparison articles, especially Jetboil Minimo vs Flash and Jetboil Minimo vs MSR Pocket Rocket.

    Aluminum is the most frequently used material in cooksets. Most modern aluminum sets are made of hard anodized aluminum which is 3 times more durable than regular. In frying pans, aluminum is usually coated with high-tech teflon coating. For example the MSR Pinnacle series has Teflon Radiance coating that is scratch resistant and very durable. This is the best choice for the perfect scrambled egg.

    Compactness and Weight

    Comparing GSI Pinnacle Camper and Snow Peak Cookset feels like comparing apples and oranges. One is a 3.63 lbs set that has almost everything you could need and more, and one is a minimalist set that only adds 11.6 oz more to your pack.

    Depending on whether you go on long backpacking trips or camp out of car more often the correct mess kit for you changes. If you do all sorts of activities and want a mess kit that will be suitable for all of them, I would recommend MSR Quick 2 System Cook Set. I think it’s the most versatile and useful. It has enough parts to make you feel comfortable camping but not so bulky that will weight down your pack. You could also always remove a few items from the set to make it more minimalist.

    If you exclusively do backpacking and would like to keep your pack weight to a minimum without sacrificing a warm meal, I'd recommend Snow Peak Cookset. The weight - value ratio is amazing!

    Caring and Cleaning

    It’s a no brainer that taking good care of your gear extends its lifetime. Most of these items are not dishwasher safe except the polypropylene bowls and plates. It’s best not to use hard detergents and steel wool while cleaning. Especially for the ones with non-stick coatings it’s best to stick to water and mild soap.

    Hard-anodized aluminum with teflon coating is quite easy to clean with the wipe of a sponge. However, you should always be careful with non-stick products as they are more likely to scratch. Especially if the set packs metal-on-metal this might damage the set while carrying. That’s why I really like MSR Quick 2 the packing is arranged in such a way that metal only touches plastic. This is definitely a design feature that extends the lifetime of your set.

    The more small parts a set has, the harder it’s to clean and more likely they’re to get lost. For example, it’s very unlikely that you’ll lose any of Snow Peak’s parts but the bowls from Winterial look like they’ll blow away in the next wind.

    Filed Under: Cookware Tagged With: backpacking, camping, camping kitchen, cooking, cookware, CookwareFoodsDrinks, food, hiking, kit

    Best 3 Person Backpacking Tent

    Last updated: August 17, 2022 by Canberk Koksal

    In summary, here are my top picks for the best 3-person backpacking tents:

    • In my opinion, MSR Mutha Hubba NX [most recent 2019 version] takes the first place due to its versatility and well thought out overall design. It maybe isn't the "best" in any department alone (except the design, as it's very pretty), but it's above average in pretty much anything you look for in a tent: Volume, weight, durability, comfort and compactness.
    • In second place there's Nemo Dagger 3P because of its ridiculously easy set up and lighter weight. It's just shy of being the winner - and to be honest, in warmer temperatures, I'd even recommend it over Mutha Hubba NX.
    • Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 is very similar to Dagger 3P (and actually even lighter!), but the geometry isn’t as convenient, and its special construction requires a bit of "special treatment".
    • Marmot Limelight 3P is a bit too heavy compared to the others but it EXCELS in bad weather. It's built like a castle. 
    • Lastly, Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 is a great option for beginners. Although it’s the heaviest, it’s also the LARGEST tent in this list!

    Now let's take a closer look at each and every one of them.

    MSR Mutha Hubba NX

    • Weight: 4 lbs 13 oz
    • Floor Area & Center Height: 39 ft2 & 44 in
    • Packed Size: 21 in (length) x 7 in (diameter)
    • What I liked: Great weather resistance, proven durability, very good inner volume, incredibly versatile, easy to set up after learning once, small packed size
    • What I didn't: Neither the footprint or the Fast & Light body is included, asymmetric vestibules take one time of trial & error to get used to

    As some of you may know, MSR Papa Hubba (the 4-person version of the Hubba Hubba series) has won my roundup for best 4-person tents as well, and this is the 3 person model of that tent. The size and weight are adjusted to fit one less person inside.

    Like Papa Hubba, you’ll notice that also MSR Mutha Hubba NX isn’t as lightweight as Big Agnes Copper Spur or Nemo Dagger, in fact it’s almost 1 lb heavier. 

    However, in my opinion, in most cases it’s worth the increased durability and weather resistance. The inside of the tent still feels roomy thanks to the cross pole design. 

    If you’re worried about the weight and you want to go even more minimalist, Mutha Hubba can be set up only with the footprint (sold separately), poles and rainfly. If this sounds a bit too minimalist you can check out the Fast & Light Bodies by MSR. The tub style floor offers more protection from rain and dirt compared to just the footprint and the entire setup weighs only 3 lbs 10 oz!

    MSR Mutha Hubba interestingly has a very small amount of mesh on the main tent body. This can be positive or a negative depending on your perspective. This is also probably the reason for the extra lbs this tent has over Big Agnes Copper Spur.

    Without the rainfly.

    Less mesh paneling means a warmer and more durable tent overall. This may be a problem if you frequently camp in warmer areas but it also creates more privacy and heat retention in colder climates. This also means that you can camp without the rainfly without being completely exposed to the whole campground.

    One main advantage Mutha Hubba has over Big Agnes Copper Spur and Nemo Dagger is the durability. MSR uses the Xtreme Shield Waterproof Coating on the raincover of the Hubba Hubba series.

    Check its assembly instruction manual [PDF] here. 

    This technology claims to be three times more durable than the classic coatings. The seam tape frequently is one of the first parts of a tent to degrade and MSR has put extra attention and added precision stitched seams.

    Also, a good alternative to this tent is MSR Elixir 3, which I reviewed in detail here.

    Also with the design of this tent, they took the time to make it work in bad weather. The cross poles create stability even with strong winds. As someone who has had poles snap under high winds, I really appreciate the easton cyclone poles that MSR boasts as “indestructible”.

    One thing to note is to set up Mutha Hubba so that the rainfly doesn’t touch the tent body. If this isn’t done properly it’ll cause condensation in colder temperatures and you might wake up with a wet sleeping bag! This was one of the most voiced customer complaints and MSR responded with a video describing how to make use of all the features on the tent: 

    Another downside (although not a big deal) to this tent is that unlike most tents the seam aren't sealed but they have precision stitching. MSR claims this increases the longevity of the rainfly as the seals usually peel of after a few years. 

    However, if you are going to use Mutha Hubba under a lot of rain you might consider sealing the seams yourself. Check out this sealant from GearAid that is also recommended by MSR.

    In short, to me, MSR Mutha Hubba NX is the best overall tent for 90% of us.

    MSR Mutha Hubba NX 3-Person Lightweight Backpacking Tent...
    12 Reviews
    MSR Mutha Hubba NX 3-Person Lightweight Backpacking Tent...
    • Ultralight: minimum weight is 2.07 kg (4 lb. 9...
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    • Min. Weight: 3 lbs 9 oz/1.54 K
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    Nemo Dagger 3P

    • Weight: 3 lbs 12 oz
    • Floor Area & Center Height: 43.9 ft2 (90 x 70 in) & 42 in
    • Packed Size: 19.5 in (length) x 6.5 in (dia)
    • What I liked: Very light, super easy to set up, dual-stage Divvy sack
    • What I didn't: No ventilation in the rainfly, footprint isn't included, need to be treated gently as it isn't as durable

    Nemo Dagger 3P is a great backpacking tent. After seeing Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL Series I was convinced that there couldn’t be any other tent out there with a better size to weight ratio, but Nemo Dagger Series definitely compete. 

    Besides being only 3 lbs and 12 oz., the packed size is also very good. The stuff sack comes in two stages which allows you to split the load up between two people. Especially during a long backpacking trip, this is much better for weight management in your packs. 

    Hubbed and color coded main pole make it super easy to set up. There's also a short mid pole for increased tent volume. One downside of the setup process is that since the tent body is mainly mesh, it is very inconvenient to set up in the rain. You might find buckets of water in the inside of the tent once you finished pitching it. 

    Two solutions to this problem:

    • One is that since the floor has great rainproof quality you can dump out the water 
    • and the other is to first pitch the tent with only the rainfly, main pole and footprint. 

    Unfortunately the footprint is not included so you have to buy it separately.

    The footprint adds an extra 8 oz. but it is 68D polyester. Compared to the 30D floor fabric this will definitely improve the durability and longevity of the tent.

    Even though the setup is actually very easy, the sockets for the poles are a little bit different than the classic designs. The poles have small balls at the end they correspond to Jake’s Foot fitting in the corners. You can check the set up instructions here.

    Another thing that might be a problem is that there's no ventilation on the rainfly. Since the main tent body is completely mesh, there is great ventilation inside. The rainfly doesn’t have any windows or vents.

    In colder nights, this results in condensation in the inside of the rainfly. This condensation rains back into the tent and you usually wake up with a wet sleeping bag. However, besides the problem of not having ventilation windows, the rainfly has great waterproof qualities with 15D ripstop nylon. 

    REI has a good article on preventing condensation inside your tent.

    While this tent is decent at colder temps and bad weather, it’s amazing in warmer weather. The mesh on the tent body is dual colored. White for the side walls for protection and black on the top for stargazing. This is a great feature while camping in summer and turns every night into a special experience.

    Also, Nemo added two corner pockets made out of special mesh that diffuses the light from your headlamp to create even lighting inside the tent. 

    Everyone who has stayed in a tent knows that trying to light the tent with only headlamps usually ends up blinding someone so this feature is definitely a big plus.

    Nemo Dagger Ultralight Backpacking Tent, Birch Leaf Green, 3...
    56 Reviews
    Nemo Dagger Ultralight Backpacking Tent, Birch Leaf Green, 3...
    • ULTRALIGHT & ROOMY - Designed for comfort &...
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    • WEATHERPROOF & RUGGED - Integrated 30D Nylon...
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    Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3

    • Weight: 3 lbs 7 oz
    • Floor Area & Center Height: 41 ft2 (90 x 70/62 in) & 43 in
    • Packed Size: 20 in (length) x 4.5 in (dia)
    • What I liked: Utralight, very roomy, simple setup
    • What I didn't: Asymmetrical design isn't the best, imperfect weather resistance

    Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 is a great backpacking tent. Technically speaking, HV UL4 earned the first place in my my top picks for 4 person backpacking tents.

    “HV” stand for high volume and it sure lives up to its name. You'll find it absolutely unbelievable how Big Agnes can achieve this low weight to size ratio - and the answer is in the fabrics (more on this later).

    The tent weight is 3 lb 7 oz - which is the lightest in this list and (probably) out in the market, but you can also use it in the minimalist version with only the footprint, poles and rainfly, which makes it even lighter at only 2 lb 12 oz. You could also easily use this tent for 2 people and it'd still come very light. 

    Another important thing to mention is that this whole tent is asymmetrical. This creative design certainly has its ups and downs. It optimizes the space and weight very well, so you don’t carry what you don’t need.

    However, the tub style bottom fabric doesn’t rise as high in the narrow section, so the person sleeping on that side is more exposed to the outside. I also personally find this design to be a bit unnecessarily complicated. In terms of design, I'd say Dagger 3P and Mutha Hubba NX are the two best in this list.

    The poles of this tent are also asymmetrical. This maximizes the tent volume, but you should be careful when setting up the tent. There's one main integrated pole and a short brow pole for increased volume. The ends of the poles are color coded to match the corners on the rainfly so setting up is still pretty easy. The tent comes with aluminum j-stakes that should be fine if you use rocks to tack down. However, they're grey, so be careful not to lose them.

    An interesting feature: Big Agnes Copper Spur is also sold with integrated LED lights. This is the patented tent light system from Big Agnes: mtnGLO.

    With a push button controller you can light up the inside of the tent in a soft light. So if you hate using a single source lighting system when you're up inside your tent at night, you might want to check out Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 mtnGLO.

    Let's talk about its fabric. As you can guess, this is both the best and worst thing about this tent. In order to achieve THIS much of light weight, the tent is mainly mesh and is made of very thin fabrics - although the material is the same: Ripstop nylon. As a result, it IS ultralight, but you must treat it more gentle to sustain its intended lifetime (durability) & performance.

    Using a lot of mesh also has its effect on the privacy, as you can guess. Especially if you're 3 female backpackers, and you're backpacking a not-so-safe region, this might be a good thing to consider.

    Also the frame is quite high, which slightly makes the tent bend against strong winds. But at least, it has a vent in the rainfly that decreases condensation. 

    Along with Dagger 3P, this tent is my top pick if you're an ultralighter. 

    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL3 Backpacking Tent,...
    22 Reviews
    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL3 Backpacking Tent,...
    • Packed Weight: 3lb 14oz / 1.76kg
    • Packed Size: 4.5" x 20" / 11 x 51cm
    • 3 Season Tent
    • Based on the features of our best-selling,...
    • Fly and floor are silicone treated proprietary...
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    Marmot Limelight 3P

    • Weight: 6 lbs 0.5 oz
    • Floor Area & Center Height: 42.5 ft2 (90 x 68 in) & 48 in
    • Packed Size: 22 in (length) x 8 in (diameter)
    • What I liked: Incredible weather resistance, vertical walls increase volume, footprint included
    • What I didn't: Heavy, bulky when packed, not enough stakes

    Marmot Limelight 3P is heavier than other alternatives in this list, but considering the high quality & very highly weather resistant materials, the weight is excusable and might worth it for some backpackers (although that's not me!).

    The most interesting feature of this tent are the pre-bent poles as they increase the interior volume a lot. You don’t get the classic cramped feeling of your head touching the tent walls when you’re sitting upright. They also increase the vestibule volume, super handy if you’re using the tent in bad weather. However, the downside is that the pre-bent poles make the packed size very bulky.

    The two doors of this tent are massive. This allows you go in and out of the tent very easily. There's a storage pouch for the tent door when it’s fully open.

    The main advantage Marmot Limelight 3P has over the others in this list is how good it performs in bad weather. Both the rainfly and the floor fabric is 68D polyester. The zippers on the vestibules are storm shut with extra flaps and there is two windows on the door for ventilation. The design of the tent is like a castle and it holds like a castle under high winds and rainfall.

    The main downside of this tent is the weight, if you'll be doing long backpacking trips into the wilderness, maybe go for something lighter like Nemo Dagger 3P or Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3. Another downside that everyone notices is that this tent definitely doesn’t come with enough stakes.

    However, you can purchase them separately or even reuse some leftover stakes from older tents.

    If you'd like to read more about this tent, I also compared it to often-compared, similar model Marmot Tungsten here and explained why Limelight 3P is the superior one. 

    If you'll be backpacking in severe weather often and wouldn't mind the extra (nearly) 1 lbs (compared to also well weather resistant Mutha Hubba NX), this tent is what I'd recommend to you.

    MARMOT Limelight 3P
    168 Reviews
    MARMOT Limelight 3P
    • Marmot Limelight 3 Person Tent Cinder Rust
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    Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3

    • Weight: 6 lbs 10 oz (footprint included)
    • Floor Area & Center Height: 48.75 ft2 (90 x 78 in) & 49 in
    • Packed Size: 23 in (length) x 6.75 in (diameter)
    • What I liked: Footprint included, very roomy
    • What I didn't: Heaviest in this review, wire stakes aren't as durable

    Even by looking at the technical specs, it's easy to see the ups and downs of Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 | Price not available. On one hand, it’s much taller and wider than the alternatives, but on the other hand, it’s much heavier.

    However, it’s important to note that this tent is almost as big as the 4-person versions of the others. So if you were looking for a 3-person tent to share between 2, you might even check out the 2-person version of Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 2 | Price not available. However, for the sake of the title of this review, I’ll talk about the 3-person model.

    This tent is as classic as a tent can possibly be. Two cross poles create the main frame and short brow pole increases volume in both the tent main body and the vestibules. The brow pole extends in the direction of the doors. The set up is still relatively simple but not as simple as the hubbed pole tents. 

    Note that if you’re planning to use this tent without the raincover, you’re fully exposed to the world. The entire tent body is made of mesh and while the views are great, it offers absolutely no privacy.

    The rainfly comes with one of these ventilation windows on each side - an important feature when camping in colder temperatures. While the mainly mesh tent body means that this tent will be more comfortable in winter, the rainfly covers all areas and offers pretty decent protection against the elements. The rainfly is 3000mm PU, meaning that it's thick, and provides mid-high rain protection. 

    I also quite like the shape of the rainfly. The walls of the tent aren’t very vertical but since the tent floor area is already very large, I don’t think the lost volume will bother anyone. The sloped walls will hold up much better in high winds by creating a path for the wind to flow. 

    One thing I don’t like is the stakes, the tent comes with the classic wire stakes that bend super easily. So, you might have to replace after using the tent for some time.

    Mountain Ultra 3 has two doors and two vestibules. The footprint is included, but there's no way to attach the tent to the footprint so it awkwardly slides around when you're trying to pitch the tent. There are multiple mesh pockets inside for gear storage.

    Basically, it has all the basics you would expect out of a good backpacking tent, and it offers the largest inner volume in this list. My top pick for beginner folks.

    TETON Sports Mountain Ultra Tent; 3 Person Backpacking Dome...
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    TETON Sports Mountain Ultra Tent; 3 Person Backpacking Dome...
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    If you want a similar quality tent to Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 but with less weight, you can also check out ALPS Mountaineering Zephyr 3 | $184.00. I might prefer Mountain Ultra due to its simpler design and durability for some trips, but Zephyr series are also a good option for beginners.


    How to choose a tent

    Since we are not looking at tents for car camping our criteria are a little bit different. Of course for improved comfort, the size of the tent both in terms of floor area and peak height is important. However, the weight and packed size also becomes very important.

    Also, the weather durability is crucial when you are out in the wilderness without any access to any car to save you out of a bad situation. Lastly, we are looking at the comfort and small design peaks of each tent. 

    Size and Weight

    Of course the most important criteria when choosing a backpacking tent is the size and weight ratio. Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 is the lightest tent on this list and on the market. Nemo Dagger 3P is a close second with only 5 oz more and a slightly a larger floor area. You could easily use either of these tents for two people and they would still be very lightweight.

    The heavy(-ier) tents on this list are Marmot Limelight 3P and Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3. However, they have redeeming qualities that excuse this weight. Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 is much bigger any tent on this list. In fact, the 2-person version of this tent is closer in size to the others. Marmot Limelight 3P also has a taller frame and more durable materials that increases the weight.

    When we look at the sizes of these tents, it’s not very straightforward. For example, MSR Mutha Hubba NX and Marmot Limelight 3P has smaller floor areas but they have taller peaks and vertical walls that increase the overall tent volume. If you are into staying inside and playing cards this should be your preference over a larger floor area.

    Another option you have when using these tent is the Fast Fly option. This is when you only use the footprint, poles and rainfly to pitch the tent. This is a very basic shelter but it saves you quite a lot of weight and space in your pack.

    However, if you’re planning to go with this option I would recommend the Fast & Light Body of Mutha Hubba NX which has a more tub style bottom rather than just the footprint. During rain of sandstorms this offers very much needed protection.

    The special Fast & Light Body for MSR Mutha Hubba NX is far better than using just the footprint.

    Packed Size

    Nemo Dagger 3P has a dual stage packing arrangement where the tent body and the poles can be packed separately. Classically the person who has the tent suffers a lot because the load never decreases. This packing style allows the load to be split between two people and the suffering to also be split between two people!

    *Even though most of these tents have quite small packed sizes you can make them even smaller by packing the poles separately and using a compression sack on the tent body and rainfly.

    Weather Resistance and Durability

    In all honesty, event though all of these tents are rated for 3 seasons only Marmot Limelight 3P fully lives up to this rating. Or it would better to rate it 3+ seasons. You could even consider using it in the snow and it should hold up.

    Regardless, if you're planning to camp in cold weather using any of these tents, read my 3 most effective tips for heating a tent without electricity.

    The 3-season rating means that this tent can be used under rainfall and light snow. However, it’s very important to pitch the tent correctly. If you are looking for tent for heavy snowstorms and below freezing temperatures check out 4-season tents.

    I’ve already mentioned in all of the individual reviews how important it’s to have good ventilation. The reason for that is, when the temperatures dip close to or below freezing, the water vapor from our breaths condense when they touch the rainfly and come back as rain inside the tent.

    In extreme cases this would cause you the wake up with fully wet sleeping bags and equipment inside the tent. It’s super important always leave channel open for the escaping water vapor.

    How to prevent condensation:

    If you’re going to camp mostly in the summer with lighter weather conditions, I can safely recommend Nemo Dagger 3P as the best ultralight tent. However, it doesn’t have any ventilation windows on the rainfly and this causes condensation on colder nights.

    The cross pole structures of Mutha Hubba NX and Marmot Limelight 3P increase wind-durability. Both of these tent also have higher non-mesh sections that prevent rain splashing into the tent in rainstorms. You can tell by all of these details that they had worse weather in mind when designing these tents.

    Unfortunately, the materials on the super lightweight tents aren’t the most durable. Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 is an amazing tent but the materials on it are quite fragile and it’s probably not the best choice for beginners that have no experience on how to care for a tent.

    Using your tent in more extreme conditions means that they will degrade faster. Extreme conditions also include severe sunlight and sandstorms. Learning how to properly take care of them before and after trips will lengthen the lifetime of your equipment.

    REI has a good article on caring for your tent.

    Comfort and Design

    When most of us are buying a tent, we first look at the technical properties of the tents like the size, weight and materials. But the little details in design can really affect the camping experience.

    For example, even though it’s not a little detail, it’s very important to have double doors and double vestibules. Double doors mean good ventilation and easy bathroom exit at night. Double vestibules are also a big plus especially if you’re going to stay in these tents with 3-people. You can use one vestibule for gear storage and one for entry and exit, and cooking in bad weather.

    Also, watch out for the floor dimensions especially when packing your mats! You might not be able to fit 4 large sleeping mats in some of these tents. Also if you're looking for good air mattresses to pair with your tent, my other article about air mattresses can also be a good read...

    None of these tents are super complicated to set up but Nemo Dagger 3P is certainly the easiest. All of them except Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 have hubbed and color coded poles that make setting up easy even for beginners. The asymmetry of Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 might take some getting used to though.

    The integrated LED lights of Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 mtnGlo are a cool feature that will impress everyone in the campsite. Dagger and Limelight also have light pockets that diffuse light when you put your headlamp there.

    Also, I know this isn’t the most important feature but I love the light green color of Nemo Dagger 3P, it’is still cheerful but blends into the environment. The rainfly of MSR Mutha Hubba NX is white which allows ambient light into the tent when it’s still light outside. It also has red details that make it stand out in the wild.


    Conclusion

    So, in short, I can list the top 5 according to these criteria as follows:

    • In my opinion, MSR Mutha Hubba NX takes the first place due to its versatility and well thought out overall design. It maybe isn't the "best" in any criteria alone (except the design, as it's very pretty), but it's just at the sweet spot of all criteria: Volume, weight, durability, comfort and compactness.
    • In second place there's Nemo Dagger 3P because of its ridiculously easy set up and lighter weight. It's just shy of being the winner - and to be honest, in warmer temperatures, I'd even recommend it over Mutha Hubba NX.
    • Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL3 is very similar to Dagger 3P (and actually even lighter!), but the geometry isn’t as convenient, and its special construction requires a bit of "special treatment".
    • Marmot Limelight 3P is a bit too heavy compared to the others but it EXCELS in bad weather and is built like a castle.
    • Lastly, Teton Sports Mountain Ultra 3 is a great option for beginners. Although it’s the heaviest, it’s also the LARGEST tent in this list!

    You can purchase them on Amazon:

    MSR Mutha Hubba NX 3-Person Lightweight Backpacking Tent...
    MSR Mutha Hubba NX 3-Person Lightweight...
    (12)
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    Nemo Dagger Ultralight Backpacking Tent, Birch Leaf Green, 3...
    Nemo Dagger Ultralight Backpacking Tent, Birch...
    (56)
    $499.95
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    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL3 Backpacking Tent,...
    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL3 Backpacking...
    (22)
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    MARMOT Limelight 3P
    MARMOT Limelight 3P
    (168)
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    TETON Sports Mountain Ultra Tent; 3 Person Backpacking Dome...
    TETON Sports Mountain Ultra Tent; 3 Person...
    (264)
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    Lastly, my other post how to sleep comfortably in a tent can be a good read for you.


    I hope this review was helpful for you to understand which 3 person backpacking tent would be the best choice for your needs. Feel free to ask me any questions, provide feedback and I'll be happy to respond in the comment section below if it's within my knowledge. 

    Thanks a lot for reading. Happy trails.

    Filed Under: Tents Tagged With: 3 person tent, backpacking, camping, hiking, tent, tents

    Best 4 Person Backpacking Tent

    Last updated: August 17, 2022 by Canberk Koksal

    Guys, I'm talking about backpacking tents here! They aren't as roomy as your other huge camping tents, but muuuch more useful for us. 

    Yeah, some hikers prefer the lightest of 4 x 1P tents, but sharing a 4P tent between 4 people could save you some substantial lbs. To me, it's more effective than carrying two 2-person tents, too.

    My top 4 person backpacking tent picks are (from best to worst):

    • To me, best one is MSR Papa Hubba NX since it's at the sweet spot of all weight, durability, weather resistance, packed size and inner volume.
    • Although it's even better than Papa Hubba, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 is my second choice because it's overkill for most of us...
    • Third is REI Co-op Half Dome 4 Plus due to its larger size, beautiful design and durability; BUT it's heavy!
    • Marmot Limelight 4 is the heaviest, but offers incredible durability, weather resistance and inner capacity. 
    • Mountainsmith Morrison Evo 4 is the best choice for beginners!

    I also shared their PDF Manuals at the bottom of this post (under Conclusion heading), if you're interested in that...

    If you’re looking for the overall best 4 person backpacking tent, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 and MSR Papa Hubba NX are really your top 2 choices. Even though Big Agnes has the bigger and lighter tent, it's really overkill for most of us - not to even mention that the Papa is even more durable and stable!

    Also, you might want a 4-person tent even if you're not hiking with 4 people. They'd be good choices for 3 people and a dog or 3 people that prefer more room.

    NOW THE REVIEWS!!! First, my top pick.

    MSR Papa Hubba NX Review

    • Weight: 5 lbs 15 oz
    • Floor area & center height: 93 x 86 in - 44 in
    • Packed size: 21 in (length) x 7 in (Dia)

    To me, with its updated 2019 version, MSR Papa Hubba NX (most recent version) is the best 4P tent for 90% of us. It's an amazing alternative to Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4.

    • What are the updates?

    Most differences between 2018 and 2019 are material of rainfly & floor (Dura shield → Xtreme shield) and poles (DAC → Easton). 

    At 5 lbs 15 oz, it's 12 oz heavier than Big Agnes Copper Spur - but still quite lightweight and the 2nd lightest in this review. Its peak height is shorter than Big Agnes, which creates less space, more wind and weather durability. Papa Hubba NX has the most unique pole structure with 5 poles extending in different directions. This is an excellent feature for stability in harsh weather conditions.

    The unique pole structure increases the tent volume and the symmetrical design protects the tent from side winds. Here's how to set it up [PDF Manual].

    Besides being an overall great tent, MSR Papa Hubba NX has some great customization features. One of them is Fast & Light Body option. We’ve talked about the minimalist fast fly setup where only the footprint and fly are used.

    MSR offers another lighter tent body called the Fast & Light Body. It’s very similar to just using the footprint, but instead, the bottom cover has a raise to provide extra protection against the elements.

    It’s like using the minimalist setup but it’s more durable in worse weather conditions. In my opinion this is one of the main advantages MSR Papa Hubba NX has over the alternatives. If you're planning to use the minimalist fly-footprint option frequently... This F&L Body is the one to go for.

    The Fast & Light Body offers more protection than using the simple footprint.

    In the latest edition of MSR Papa Hubba NX, the tent gets a weather durability update. Both the coating on the raincover and the poles are improved to stand stronger winds and heavier rainfalls.

    When talking about the MSR Hubba Series we should also compare them to MSR Elixir series. Both of these tent series are offered in multiple sizes. I’ve also done an intensive review of MSR Elixir 3 if you want to check that out.

    Both of them are great tents with creative designs but MSR Papa Hubba is lighter and packed smaller, which is why I chose it for this review. Also, the pole design of Papa offers more stability and protection against winds.

    But the best thing about this tent is its space. Before, you'd probably complain about the inner space of this tent, but in 2019, it's updated for maximum livability to offer as much space inside as possible by using an extra pole. The result is this:

    Inner environment is now unlike pyramid like tents and more like a flat ceiling home.

    Also, after Mountainsmith Morrison EVO (95 in) and Big Agnes Copper Spur (96 in), this tent offers the widest floor area at 93 inches. When it comes to space, I'm a lot more about the tent width, rather than area or length.

    Now... I do have three gripes about this tent: 

    1. Its 5 pole set up is a learning curve - especially when compared to Big Agnes Copper Spur which uses only 2 poles... So typically it'd take a few trials to get it. Make sure you read the set up manual [PDF] above.
    2. Although it offers great livability with the updated 2019 model, its center height (44 inches) is still lower than most other tents - especially Big Agnes Copper Spul.
    3. Vestibules are a little smaller than other tents in this review.

    As I mentioned, the cross pole design offers wind protection for all directions and the 1200 mm durashield nylon used in the rainfly is pretty resistant against rain. I'd recommend this tent probably to 90% of you.

    Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 Review

    • Weight: 5 lbs 3 oz
    • Floor area & center height: 96 x 86 in - 50 in
    • Packed size: 21.5 in (length) x 5 in (Dia)

    If you're looking for the best lightweight, spacious, and breathable tent, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 is your choice. As long as you'll be treating it fairly gentle, I think it's the best overall for most of us.

    At 5 lbs 3 oz FFW and 4 lbs 2 oz TW, body and poles are unbelievably lightweight without sacrificing the volume. At 96 in x 86 in (57 sq ft), it's the second largest floor area in this list after REI Co-op Half Dome Plus with 92 in x 92 in (58.7 sq ft).

    But... when you look a little deeper... It's actually larger! Why?

    Because you wouldn't like to have a tent with square floor - but a rectangular floor. When sleeping, width is much more important than length - as long as length does suffice taller people & longer mats. At 86 & 92 inches of lengths, both tents are longer than enough for this - so I'd absolutely give this tent the highest points in terms of floor space!

    Besides, it has the highest center height (a whooping 50 in! thanks to its hub pole design) - so I really don't see the competition here...

    Back to being lightweight, Big Agnes achieved it with lots of mesh in the tent body and DAC Featherlite poles.

    At 21.5 x 5 inches, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 also has the smallest packed size in this list. Obviously this is more important if you'll take longer hikes (more than, say, 3-5 days) at least once.

    The design of this tent is very simple. Big Agnes went for a classic design with a "hubbed" cross pole and a short additional pole. The walls of the tent are remarkably vertical resulting in a roomy tent. The tent body is mainly made of mesh that is great in warmer climates.

    The fly only has one air vent which could be a disadvantage in higher temperatures. However, with good setup the mesh walls should be enough to prevent condensation.

    For some more visuals & about hub pole design, check out this video from Big Agnes:

    If you're worried about standing out with a flashy orange tent, it's also available in "olive" color that blends into the surroundings.

    But, well, you have to sacrifice something in return against being this lightweight & super spacious...

    If I had to say one thing I didn’t like about this tent it would be that it’s not as sturdy as Marmot Limelight 4 or REI Co-op Half Dome 4 Plus in the wind durability department. The frame is on the taller side for the simple pole structure.

    For example, Marmot Limelight 4 is taller but it also has strong poles in both axes that keep the tent stable. Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 is made of very lightweight materials to achieve the incredible ultralight packing but this of course means that it shouldn’t be handled roughly.

    As long as you'll be treating it fairly gentle, I think it's the best overall for most of us! I'd recommend using the tent exclusively with the footprint in order to prevent damage to the bottom of the tent.

    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL4 Backpacking Tent,...
    3 Reviews
    Big Agnes 2019 Copper Spur HV UL4 Backpacking Tent,...
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    REI Co-op Half Dome 4 Plus Review

    • Weight: 7 lbs 1 oz
    • Floor area & center height: 92 x 92 in - 48 in
    • Packed size: 24 in (length) x 7 in (Dia)

    In my opinion, this amazing tent from REI is really good! Even though it’s not lightweight it’s a comfortable and sturdy tent that you could use in almost every occasion. The 58.7 ft2 floor area is the largest on this list, and the width also creates a comfortable sleeping environment for 4 people. 

    Another thing REI Half Dome Plus excels at is how easy the setup is. It has hubbed poles that are color coded to make setting up easier. Besides the three main axis poles, it has this additional short middle pole that lifts the roof of the tent even higher to create extra head space. The easy setup makes this a great option for both beginners and advanced campers.

    This is a hubbed pole system meaning that the four poles are attached to each other.

    It also performs really well in both really hot and rainy weather. The main tent body is mainly made out 20-denier nylon mesh that lets the tent breathe. However, the bottom third of the tent is made of 40-denier nylon to increase privacy and prevent dust from entering the tent. The raincover is made of 40-denier nylon that can endure quite strong rainstorms. The raincover features lots of vents that both increase breath-ability and decrease condensation.

    But remember, this is a 3 season tent (like all the others in this review) so don't use it for anything really severe...

    The design of the doors on the raincover also prevent rain from entering the tent. In fact you can really tell that every single detail of this tent has been thought out. The inside is filled with mesh pockets to store your loose items, and the stakes and guylines create a very sturdy tent body.

    Compared to Big Agnes or MSR Papa Hubba, this tent isn't even nearly as light or packed small. However, if you think you can sacrifice them for more durability, I'd recommend the REI Co-op Half Dome Plus 4 confidently.

    *In 2018 REI discontinued to normal Half Dome and announced that only the Plus versions would be sold. These are the slightly larger and roomier alternatives to the classic.

    Marmot Limelight 4 Review

    • Weight: 7 lbs 15 oz
    • Floor area & center height: 92 x 81 in - 54 in
    • Packed size: 27 in (length) x 9 in (Dia)

    Marmot Limelight 4 is definitely not the best tent in this list in terms of size to weight ratio. It’s the heaviest with 7 lbs and 15 oz, and it has the smallest floor area. The best thing about it is its durability, weather protection and breath-ability.

    However, the peak height is 54 inches - which is great! If you are camping in a cold environment or especially a storm you will have to spend lots of time in the tent. The build of the poles creates vertical walls and roomy head space that creates a very comfortable environment for playing cards, eating, hanging out etc. 

    The poles at the corners bend in a way that creates vertical walls and a large head space.

    What I really like about this tent is the simplicity of the design. You can tell that the pole system is nothing super complicated and it is even made easier by the color coded system. The shorter two grey poles increase the head space greatly.

    • I also compared this tent to Marmot Tungsten

    They're 3P models though... Check it out here. But the info there is still applicable to 4P.

    The inside also has four corner pockets for your loose items and four top pockets for easy lighting. The top features loops and hooks to attach lighting or a rack. Since this is a tall tent, attaching items in the head doesn’t become annoying. If you want to use the tent with the door fully open, there is pouch at the bottom where the door nicely folds in. 

    Another thing I like about the design are the D-shaped vestibules. I’ve already mentioned the importance of good vestibules and D-shape protects the gear in the vestibules from rain and is much better for ventilation. Overall you can tell that this tent they had bad weather in mind when designing this tent. The rainfly can withstand up to 1500 mm of rain which is borderline a 3+ season tent. 

    Depending on your perspective the flashy orange color of Marmot Limelight can be a advantage or disadvantage. On the one hand, it’s super easy to find your tent even at night or in a fog but on the other hand you certainly don’t blend into the surroundings.

    The main downside of this tent is the weight. If you want a lightweight tent, Marmot Limelight 4 doesn’t even compare to Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 or MSR Papa Hubba NX. Similar to REI Half Dome Plus 4 you might want to consider this if you're looking for a halftime camping, halftime backpacking tent. Another thing I don’t like is the too large packed size at 27 x 9 inches. 

    However, it’s still lightweight when compared to harsher weather tents which tend to be heavier than all of these on the list.

    Mountainsmith Morrison Evo 4 Review

    • Weight: 7 lbs 1 oz
    • Floor area & center height: 95 x 84 in - 51 in
    • Packed size: 20 in (length) x 9 in (Dia)

    Mountainsmith Morrison Evo 4 is a great beginner tent that would be able to fit up to 4 people. It has everything you'd expect from a 4 person tent - but with some quality, weight and space sacrifices.

    The polyester rain cover is quite durable and the aluminum poles are lightweight. The inside features lots of corner pockets and a mesh ceiling canopy for extra storage. It also has two vestibules to store gear and cook in bad weather. Of course it’s not as lightweight as Big Agnes or durable as REI Half Dome but overall still pretty good.

    Mountainsmith Morrison Evo has the simplest pole structure out of the bunch with two main cross poles and small brow pole. The brow pole increases the head space but compared to the other tents with more poles that are longer, the brow pole doesn’t do much.

    While the simple pole structure is a great bonus for easy setup, it’s a big minus for weather durability. The more complex cage like structures like the one from Marmot Limelight protect the tents from heavy winds. Mountainsmith Morrison Evo has good materials and seams but it wouldn’t hold up as well as the others in a rainstorm due to the structure.

    Another thing to note is that this tent features less mesh than the others on this list. This would mean that it would be warmer, which could be a plus in colder nights and very uncomfortable in warmer nights.

    The tent body has less mesh paneling than the others.

    When you include the footprint this tent becomes 8 lbs 6 oz which is borderline too heavy. I would still take it backpacking but it doesn’t compare to Big Agnes or MSR Papa Hubba. You may choose to omit the footprint or use the tent in its fly-footprint mode (This tent also comes with this feature!).

    *Mountainsmith Morrison Evo in the Fast Fly mode with only the footprint and rainfly

    If you are looking for even more beginner options you might want to check out ALPS Mountaineering Lynx 4P ($140) or even Coleman Sundome ($53!). While they are inferior to the options we’ve discussed, if you are new to backpacking they are great gateway tents. 


    So what should you consider while looking for a 4 person tent? 

    Again, I know there are huge amazing 4+ person tents out there but the ones we’re focusing on in this article are the ones suited for backpacking. This means that we’ll also focus on the weight, packed size and how easy it’s to pack and set-up. The other criteria for this comparison are the capacity, comfort, seasonality, weather durability, materials and design.

    First, pretty obviously...

    Packed Size and Capacity

    Capacity

    In order to shed some extra lbs the manufacturers sacrifice tent volume. Among the tents we're comparing, REI Co-op Half Dome 4 Plus has the largest floor area and the largest tent volume. 

    In terms of capacity... It’s hard to say. They differ in their floor area to tent height ratios. For example, Marmot Limelight 4 has the smallest floor area but has the highest center height. This means that even though you'll be more cramped when lying down, playing cards or eating in this tent is probably more comfortable due to increased head space.

    If you're looking for a 3 person backpacking tent, check out my top picks here.

    I gave the separate dimensions and the overall floor area in the comparison chart in this post. All of these should fit even the tallest of people. Still, I think my tips to sleeping comfortably inside a tent would be a good read for any 4 people going to sleep inside a tent together. If it's winter, you can also take a look at my tips to heating a tent without electricity.

    Watch out for the floor dimensions especially when packing your mats! You might not be able to fit 4 large sleeping mats in some of these tents. Also if you're looking for good air mattresses to pair with your tent, my other article about air mattresses can also be a good read...

    Packed Size

    Another thing to consider in the size category is the packed size. At only 21.5 x 5 inches, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 wins this round which is a great plus for long/thru hikes longer than 3-5 days. On the opposite end, Marmot Limelight 4 is packed pretty big at 27 x 9 inches. You could (should) split this tent between with your friends to make it easier to carry.

    Weight

    Weight is another top priority for me when backpacking. All of these tents are pretty good in the weight department and you could take any one of them on a long trip. However, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL 4 is by far the best in this category with only 5lbs 3oz.

    To me, considering that this tent is not cramped either, this is nuts. MSR Papa Hubba NX is a close second with only 5lbs 15oz but it’s a bit smaller in volume compared to Big Agnes, so... not a very reasonable comparison.

    I listed multiple weights for some of the products in the comparison chart at the bottom of this post.

    • What's TW and FFW?

    "TW" stands for trail weight, which is different from the packaged weight. Trail weight only includes the "FFW" stands for Fast Fly Weight which is a more minimalist option that includes only the footprint, poles, stakes and the fly.

    Yeah, FFW is more uncomfortable than using the actual tent, but I'd prefer this way for longer hikes or in any other condition I'd like a lighter pack. I REALLY like that MSR Papa Hubba NX can also be used with a Fast & Light base as a more minimalist option.

    This base is sold separately and offers more protection than using just the footprint though... But if you’re like me and interested in a more minimalist shelter option, definitely check that out. 

    Seasonality and Weather Durability

    I'm all about the 3 season tents here. If you're unaware about it, it means that they can withstand rainfalls and light snow but they aren’t designed for anything more severe. 3 season tents are usually lighter and roomier than 3+ and 4 season tents. Since I'm about backpacking tents here, this criteria is more important.

    When trying to heat up a tent, the size becomes an issue. From comfort perspective, it’s great that REI Half Dome Plus and Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 are roomy, but if there's only 2 of you inside it, warming it up becomes a headache in colder nights.

    When you’re camping in cold and/or humid environments often condensation buildup on the inside of your tents and raincovers. This is because the warmth your body and breath produce a warm air inside the tent that turns to liquid when it touches the cold tent body. This may then turn into ice or create a pseudo-rain in the inside of your tent.

    It’s important for tents to have lots of ventilation and flaps on the fly of the tent. This creates a way for the warm air to escape without condensing. You can read about this under ventilation heading of this post of mine (it's the review of MSR Elixir 3).

    REI Half Dome Plus has great flaps that create ventilation without letting in the air. In fact, having good ventilation was one of my main criteria when choosing these tents, so all of them are pretty good in that aspect.

    In order to prevent condensation, make full use of the ventilation systems. Also check out this video from MSR on condensation & how to prevent it:

    if I were to camp in foul weather as much as in better 3 seasons, due to its complex pole structure and thick rainfly (can withstand up to 1500 mm rain!) Marmot Limelight 4 could be a good choice.

    • PAPA saves you too!

    The complex pole structure and raincover of MSR Papa Hubba NX makes it a GREAT choice for bad weather.

    On the contrary, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 has a very tall frame and thin materials to keep the weight low, but these factors decrease its weather durability. Mountainsmith Morrison Evo also has a simple pole structure and in general lower quality stitching which results in lower performance in bad weather. Just like in other cases REI Half Dome Plus does pretty well in bad weather with a 40 denier raincover.

    • What is “denier”?

    Denier is a thickness measurement in fabrics with fibers. Higher the denier number, higher the durability; but less breath-ability and softness.

    Comfort and Design

    IMO, having two vestibules is a great advantage. When I'm with large groups, I like using one vestibule as a storage space to keep our packs dry and the other for entrance & cooking. In good weather this not that important since you will probably be doing the cooking outside but in bad weather being able to cook in the vestibule area is a life saver.

    While all of these tents are actually on the small side for 4-person tents, they have 2 vestibules that increase storage space. 

    At first hubbed poles may look strange or confusing but they are definitely the easier option. They save you the time it takes to figure out which pole is meant to go into which axis. Some designs have also got rid of this problem with color coded poles. If MSR Papa Hubba didn’t have these, most people would take at least half an hour to set it up! You’ll also notice that all of these tents have pole clips instead of the traditional pole sleeves. Tents with pole clips are much easier to setup and especially when the temperature drops below freezing much easier to disassemble. I’ve had so many instances where the pole and sleeve froze together and it was impossible to separate them. Mountainsmith Morrison Evo is especially easy to setup and is great for people without any camping experience.

    I know color/beauty usually isn’t anyone's main concern when choosing a tent but... it’s still a factor to consider. Marmot Limelight 4 comes in a very bright orange color. If you don’t like to attract attention then this may become annoying but it certainly is a plus when you are trying to spot your tent from a distance.

    My favorites in the color aspect are REI Half Dome and MSR Papa Hubba NX which both have a reddish interior and a whitish rainfly. The white rainfly creates a natural light in the tent when you are inside during daylight. Whereas a bright orange makes everyone and everything inside look very orange.

    Big Agnes Copper Spur is sold in orange and olive to give people options and Mountainsmith Morrison Evo comes in a grey-green that blends right into the surroundings.

    The white rainfly creates natural lighting inside the tent.

    To me, MSR Papa Hubba NX looks the prettiest:


    Conclusion

    My top 4P tent picks are (from best to worst):

    • To me, best one is MSR Papa Hubba NX since it's at the sweet spot of all weight, durability, weather resistance, packed size and inner volume. [PDF Manual]
    • Although it's even better than Papa Hubba, Big Agnes Copper Spur HV UL4 is my second choice because it's overkill for most of us... [PDF Manual]
    • Third is REI Co-op Half Dome 4 Plus due to its larger size, beautiful design and durability; BUT it's heavy! [PDF Manual]
    • Marmot Limelight 4 is the heaviest, but offers incredible durability, weather resistance and inner capacity. 
    • Mountainsmith Morrison Evo 4 is the best choice for beginners!

    I hope this review was helpful for you to understand which 4P backpacking tent is the best one for your needs. Feel free to ask me any questions, provide feedback and I'll be happy to respond in the comment section below if it's within my knowledge. 

    Thanks a lot for reading. Happy trails.

    Filed Under: Tents Tagged With: 4 person tents, backpacking, camping, hiking, tent

    Western Mountaineering Ultralite vs Alpinlite

    Last updated: August 17, 2022 by Canberk Koksal

    If you're looking for a top-notch quality, lightweight, buy-it-for-life, made in USA backpacking sleeping bag, and you're stuck between Western Mountaineering Ultralite and Alpinlite, you don't need to worry because I can almost 100% guarantee you that you absolutely can't and won't go wrong with either of them. Both are warm, comfortable, lightweight, packed small and versatile - with one small difference:

    Ultralite is just a slimmer version of the Alpinlite.

    Everything else is the same although you get a 2 oz less weight and smaller packed size with the Ultralite's slimmer cut (see their manuals here [PDF]).

    But how do you know which one you should get? In this post, I've gathered all the information to consider when deciding between Alpinlite and Ultralite.

    • If you're taller than 6'6"...

    You can only get Alpinlite 7' because the longest Ultralite is only 6'6".

    First of all, as long as you aren't over 6'6", you probably won't experience any problem in fitting inside either of these bags (regardless of your shoulder width, build, etc). If you're a side sleeper, Alpinlite | $645.00 is probably a better choice for you since its baggier cut allows more comfort for side sleepers. For all the others, Ultralite | $580.00 is probably the better choice since its slimmer cut brings nearly smaller packed size (for sizes over 5'6" in length) and ≈2 oz of weight reduction.

    But, again, both bags are top tier and I'd highly doubt you'd regret buying either of them.

    • Also, if sleeping on your TUMMY is VERY important for you

    Don't get either of these mummy bags and check out Nemo Disco/Rave/Riff/Jam spoon shaped sleeping bags which are specifically designed for this purpose. But beware - they aren't made in USA unlike Alpinlite and Ultralite.

    I talked to the WM Customer Service (screenshot below) and concluded this once more: Ultralite is just a slimmer version of the Alpinlite. Everything else is identical!

    Click on image to enlarge. Below I shared the attachment the rep provided.

    Here's the mail attachment: https://outdoorcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/WM-2018-Specs-1.jpg


    Now, the differences are as follows on paper:

    • Differences between Alpinlite and Ultralite
    • Width: Alpinlite is 4-5" (depending on the bag sizes - see attachment by the rep above) wider in shoulders & hips, and 1" wider in foot
    • Weight: Alpinlite is 1-2 oz heavier (depending on the bag sizes - see attachment by the rep above)
    • Fill weight: Being wider, Alpinlite needs 2 extra oz of down to offer the same warmth as Ultralite
    • Packed smaller: Sack size of Ultralite is XS - whereas that of Alpinlite is S. However, 5'6" Alpinlite also comes in XS sack size. 

    And now let me translate the consequences of these spec differences.

    Girth

    Let's begin with the most important difference.

    Click on image to enlarge.

    Extra girth of Alpinlite has a few advantages over Ultralite:

    • Sleeping on your side/tummy (for some, even on your back!) is more comfortable
    • You can stuff valuable or self-defense gear inside (be a lone female) when needed
    • When it's below 20 F (which is the min advertised temperature limit for both bags) you can stuff pre-heated rocks inside for extra warmth, or you can wear more layer and still sleep inside comfortably

    What about the downsides of extra width of Alpinlite?

    • Depending on the bag size you get, it's 1-2 oz heavier than Ultralite
    • Unless you get the 5'6" size, stuff sack is 1 size larger than Ultralite (S vs XS) (more on this later)

    Wait, so the extra dead air in Alpinlite doesn't take longer to be heated?

    Technically speaking, it should (does), but it really isn't noticeable at all. Inner volume increase really isn't substantial when it comes to heating speed.

    I'd clear this out in my mind: Regardless of your build/gender/weight/height/age, you'll experience the same warmth inside these bags.

    Which brings me to my next point...

    Warmth

    Although the warmth provided by these bags are identical, I'd like to talk about some shared features of these bags.

    Fill Weight

    If you're unaware what fill weight means: It's the weight (amount) of down used in the bag.

    If you're unaware what down means, it's the feather that keeps duck and goose warm. As a thermodynamics law (entropy), the heat will always diffuse a colder region in order to achieve equilibrium. In that case, these feathers (down) traps the air inside and prevent the heat from escaping the heat source (which, in our case, is human body). 

    We humans use this down in sleeping bags, jackets, booties and in everything else we'd like to insulate and keep warm as long as possible.

    Fill weight (amount of down) is directly proportional to the warmth provided by a sleeping bag.

    Alpinlite has 2 extra oz of down. But! That does NOT mean that Alpinlite offers more warmth! Since it's wider, it has more material and therefore needs to have more down by right to provide the same warmth as Ultralite.

    The warmth provided by these bags are identical.

    What about Fill Power?

    If you're unaware, fill power (FP) is what, ultimately, defines the quality of a down. It's rated on a scale from around 500 up to 900. A 500 FP down means that when the down is at rest, it'll spread to 500 cubic inches. The higher the volume it spreads, the more air is going to be trapped inside the down.

    This way less heat will be able to escape your body, and as a result, you'll feel warmer.

    Most other manufacturers equip their gear with downs with different fill power: 500, 600, 800. Although it certainly is possible to provide a fair amount of warmth using a low-end FP (low quality) down, it certainly will take a lot more of it and hence the heavier weight.

    Western Mountaineering, on the other hand, always uses the finest quality down. They never use even medium-high quality down (below 800 FP). According to their manuals [PDF], their laboratory tests conclude their down quality over 850 FP. This is how they achieve low weight, small packed size AND incredible warmth all at the same time (hence their premium price range). This is only attainable with a super high FP - like 850+.

    So if Alpinlite and Ultralite both offer 850+ FP (very high) down quality, that means they're identical. Then why am I talking about it?

    • So that you know both use top-notch down quality
    • It'll be important when I talk about the storage of these bags

    Conclusion: Both bags provide equal warmth.

    Also, these bags are rated at 20 F - which means they're going to provide enough warm at temperatures as low as 20 F.

    But...

    What if you use them below 20 F?

    This value (20 F) is not only conservative, but also indicate the minimum temperature a 25 year old, 5'3" (1.6 m) & 130 lb (60 kg) female can sleep comfortably inside the bag.

    It's based on women since they sleep colder than men.

    Although these are 3 season bags, they will still feel pretty warm even below 20 F. For even further below that, you can check out my 3 most effective tips to heat a tent/sleeping bag without electricity. The "heating rocks" tip would work the best with Alpinlite rather than Ultralite since it has more room inside to stuff items.

    Weight and packed size

    Weight

    As you see, depending on the model, Alpinlite is 1-2 oz heavier than Ultralite:

    Click on image to enlarge.

    To me (not really an ultralighter and more like a fairlighter) these weight reductions of UltraLite wouldn't really worth sacrificing the extra comfort and customization benefits of the AlpinLite.

    Packed size (stuff sack)

    Here's how XS and S stuff sack sizes compare:

    Click on image to enlarge.

    As you see in the chart above, S size is 8 (DIA) x 15 inches, whereas XS size is 7 (DIA) x 13 inches. "Compressed volume" column you see in the above chart isn't important since both bags come with their stuff sack and you'll be using them for transport.

    Another thing to consider here, as mentioned earlier, is the 5'6" size of these bags: They both come in XS stuff sack. So, if you're planning to buy the 5'6" size of either of these bags, Ultralite loses its packed size advantage!

    Regardless...

    ALWAYS push your sleeping bags to very deep into their sacks - but they should stay there only when transporting! Otherwise, your sleeping bag should always be stored in the storage bag - which is baggier and allows the down to breathe and stay lofty. This is very important for the life of your sleeping bag.

    For other maintenance and FAQ, this guide by WM can be a good read for you.

    Other shared features of these bags

    Both bags offer the following.

    Continuous baffle

    This is what I really like about these bags as it allows great versatility.

    Continuous baffle allows shifting the down at the top of the bag to the bottom of it (and vice versa) and as a result adjusting insulation (and hence, warmth) to your taste. What I really like about this is that you can basically sleep a lot more comfortably during warmer summer nights.

    Therefore, unlike most other bags, you can use these bags during hot summer nights AND cold winter nights.

    Draft tube

    Draft tube hinders the heat leakage from zippers.

    Click on image to enlarge. As you see, the feature in green box isn't offered some WM bags. But what does it do?

    This draft tube helps the downs protect their full loft throughout the entire bag surface. This way, in terms of heat leakage, these zips aren't the weakest spot of a bag anymore.

    Full collar

    What WM calls "full collar" is the continued portion of draft tube:

    Click on image to enlarge. Full collar is the portion of draft tube around the neck.

    Just like draft tube, full collar also prevents the heated air from escaping the bag. But unlike around the zipper, full collar prevents the it from escaping it around your neck.

    As you see, when full collar and draft tube is combined, you get a highly insulated sleeping bag.

    Left or right zip?

    As you see on Amazon, both bags come with either left or right zips. To me, this is only important if you own an asymmetric 1P tent which offers only one door. Let me tell you why.

    Chances are, with that type of small tent, you'd probably want your feet pointed towards the end of the tent with smaller area while sleeping. So, with this sleeping bag position, if the door of your tent is positioned to the right of your sleeping bag, you'd better get the bag with right-zipping. If the door of your tent is positioned to the left of your sleeping bag, you'd better get the bag with left-zipping!

    Also, if you're looking for an air mattress for camping too, this post of mine can be a good read for you.

    Conclusion

    In summary, I'd recommend the Alpinlite | $645.00 to all side/tummy sleepers and/or bigger fellas. If you aren't one of these, the ways you can leverage the extra internal room can still be substantial: You can always stuff valuable and/or self-defense gear inside when needed (especially if you're a lone camping female). When it's below 20 F (comfort limit for these bags) outside, you can stuff pre-heated rocks inside for more warmth, or wear extra layers.

    Western Mountaineering Alpinlite Sleeping Bag: 20F Down...
    7 Reviews
    Western Mountaineering Alpinlite Sleeping Bag: 20F Down...
    • 20° F temperature rating and 5IN loft
    • Made with a lightweight 12 denier shell fabric...
    • Full-length #5 YKK zipper with an insulated draft...
    • 5 1/4IN spacing/continuous baffles which encircle...
    • 1 lb. 15 oz. total weight and 64?/39?...
    $645.00
    Buy on Amazon

    If you're a slim person, though, and you aren't really a side/tummy sleeper, the extra room of Alpinlite could be a downside as it adds to weight. If you'd gladly take the 2 oz of weight reduction and smaller packed size (for sizes over 5'6") over all these benefits, Ultralite | $580.00 is the way to go for you.

    Western Mountaineering Ultralite 20 Degree Sleeping Bag...
    6 Reviews
    Western Mountaineering Ultralite 20 Degree Sleeping Bag...
    • 20° F temperature rating and 5IN loft
    • Made with very breathable and weather resistant 20...
    • Full-length #5 YKK zipper with an insulated draft...
    • 5 1/4IN spacing/continuous baffles which encircle...
    • 1 lbs. 13 oz. total weight and 59IN/38IN...
    $580.00
    Buy on Amazon

    Lastly, my other post how to sleep comfortably in a tent can be a good read for you.


    I hope this review was helpful for you to understand which WM sleeping bag would be the best choice for your needs. Feel free to ask me any questions, provide feedback and I'll be happy to respond in the comment section below if it's within my knowledge. 

    Thanks a lot for reading. Happy trails.

    Filed Under: Gear Tagged With: backpacking, bag, camping, hiking, mountaineering, sleeping, warmth, western

    Nemo Riff/Jam vs Disco/Rave (15 & 30): Only ONE Difference

    Last updated: August 17, 2022 by Canberk Koksal

    Rave 15 (see image) and Disco 15 are as warm as Jam 15 and Riff 15! Lower FP does not always mean lower warmth... I mean, as long as you're using your sleeping bag like everyone else in this world and not like shown in the picture!

    If you're a cold, side (or tummy) sleeper looking for a backpacking sleeping bag, don't get a regular mummy sleeping bag and instead check out Nemo's Riff and Disco models. Their spoon-shaped design allows greater room around your legs and shoulders without sacrificing warmth, which solves the problem for cold, side (or tummy) sleepers. You can see their manuals here [PDF].

    But... which one should you get? Disco or Riff (or, for women, Rave or Jam)? 15 or 30? Reg or Long? This post is all you need for the answer.

    In summary, if extra 2-4 ounces and an inch longer packed size aren't huge concerns for you, Disco 15 (or Rave 15 for women) will work perfectly fine! Otherwise, Riff 15 (or Jam 15 for women) would be a better choice. 

    Because, most importantly, the warmth provided by Riff/Jam 15 is equal to the Disco/Rave 15, and the warmth provided by Riff/Jam 30 is equal to the Disco/Rave 30!

    • Nemo might be on sale now at REI

    So I'd recommend you to check out Nemo's very own sale page at REI before buying. 

    Before I get to the bolts and nuts, I'd like to say that I really don't see why would anyone go for 30 F deg models of these bags. Decrease in price doesn't worth the warmth sacrifice - even if you aren't a true cold sleeper (more on this later)...

    So, as you see, their only difference is:

    Weight and packed size.

    I talked to the NEMO Equipment Customer Service (screenshots below) and made hours of research to conclude that Riff/Jam Series DO NOT provide more warmth than Disco/Rave Series!

    Click on image to enlarge. I know the rep didn't make some points clear enough. That's why I kept asking him and shared the screenshots below.

    In fact... You know what? Technically speaking, Disco/Rave provide more warmth than Riff/Jam (although the difference is pretty much not noticeable)! More on this later.


    Now on paper, their differences are as follows:

    • What does Riff/Jam offer in addition to Disco/Rave?
    • Higher down quality (so called fill power): 800 FP is used in Riff/Jam compared to Disco/Rave's 650 FP
    • Fill weight (so called fill power): Less down is used in Riff/Jam and hence it weighs less
    • Thinner shell fabric: 20D vs 30D - which is slightly lighter & more compressible but also slightly less durable
    • Weight: Slightly (2-4 ounces) lighter
    • Packed smaller: 0.5 inches shorter (in length - not dia) when packed

    I didn't provide the exact numbers to these specs because they differ between 15-30, male-female, reg-long models.

    And now let me translate these.

    Fill Power Difference: 650 FP vs 800 FP

    Fill Power (FP) is the measured loft of down. In other words, it's the end size of the down when it's in rest, e.g. "fully expanded".

    For example, an 600 FP down means that 1 oz of that down can cover 600 cubic inches. This, in other words, is what defines the quality of down. Higher FP means more warmth for its weight. Because more air will be trapped inside the down and will work as an insulator:

    Generally speaking, for sleeping bags, over 750 FP (to my knowledge, they go up to 900 FP) is considered top notch quality down (Riff/Jam) whereas 600-750 FP as "medium" quality (Disco/Rave).

    Now when I said "for its weight" above, what I'm trying to say is that Fill Power is NOT the only thing that determines the ultimate warmth of a bag. The amount of down is also very important - which is called "fill weight".

    A product filled with 500 FP down can provide the warmth a product with 800 FP down does. But it certainly will be A LOT HEAVIER since it requires more down!

    And that, kids, is what causes the key difference between Disco/Rave and Riff/Jam products. Disco/Rave is filled with more 650 FP down, whereas Riff/Jam is filled with less 800 FP down.

    As a result, Riff/Jam weighs substantially (2-4 oz - depending on the model you get) less and its packed size is smaller.

    But what about their ultimate warmth? Does Jam/Rave's 20.5 oz 800 FP down provide more warmth than Disco/Rave's 22.5 oz 650 FP down?

    Short answer: No. They're identical.

    Now when we get to the long answer - I don't know the math behind these calculations, but I do know something more useful: EN 13537.

    It's a standard metric used for the warmth provided by a sleeping bag. It basically takes into account ALL the factors that affect the warmth of a sleeping bag and rate them on a scale. Lower EN Rating always means more warmth!

    Now let's see where Disco/Rave and Riff/Jam stand...

    EN Ratings

    EN 13537 is the warmth standard for sleeping bags, and there are different EN ratings. 

    EN Comfort

    For example, EN Comfort shows the minimum temperature a 25 year old, 5'3" (1.6 m) & 130 lb (60 kg) female can sleep comfortably inside the bag. It's based on women since they sleep colder than men. Lower EN Comfort means higher warmth.

    EN Lower Limit

    EN Comfort isn't end all be all.

    There are other measurements such as EN Lower Limit - which shows the minimum temperature at which a 25 year old, 5'8" (1.73 m) & 160 lbs male can sleep for 8 hours in a curled position without waking up. Similar to EN Comfort, the lower the EN Lower Limit, the warmer you'll feel inside the bag.

    There are also EN Upper Limit and EN Extreme, which I won't go into detail, so you can check Wikipedia for that matter.

    Now let's see where our two (*cough* four) bags stand:

    As you see, judging by the EN standards, Disco/Rave provides even more warmth than Riff/Jam! But the difference is pretty much not noticeable, so I don't really agree with the "if you sleep on the colder side get Disco/Rave" part.  

    Warmth debate concluded: Disco/Rave 15 will provide equal warmth to Riff/Jam 15. Disco/Rave 30 will provide equal warmth to Riff/Jam 30.

    But... Which one should you get? 15 or 30?

    Disco/Rave Riff/Jam 15 vs 30

    Once more, I'd like to repeat that the warmth performance of the bag you get will be determined by whether you get the 15 or 30 model. Whether you get Disco/Rave or Riff/Jam will determine the weight and packed size of the bag - not its warmth.

    15 will perform well in temperatures as low as 15 F (-9 C) and 30 will perform well in temperatures as low as 30 F (-1 C).

    I'd also like to say one more time that I really don't see why would anyone go for 30 F deg models of these bags. Decrease in price doesn't worth the warmth sacrifice - even if you don't sleep really cold.

    If you decide to buy one of these bags, buy the 15 F model!

    Shell Fabrics: 20D vs 30D

    Shell fabric isn't an insulator-specific term.

    In our case, Riff vs Disco, the difference is that Disco uses 30D Nylon Ripstop w/ DWR whereas Riff uses 20D Nylon Ripstop w/ DWR. Higher denier (D) means thicker fabric, and therefore Disco is heavier & more durable compared to Riff, whereas Riff is not only lighter but also can be compressed further although it has slightly less durability.

    On the other hand... These are from very scientific standpoint, guys. In practice, the difference is so subtle that priority of shell fabric thickness in the durability department is waaaay behind how you treat the bag or how long you use it.

    That's why I change my argument to this:

    Both are great fabric thicknesses (deniers) for sleeping bags and you won't notice a difference in practice.

    Besides shell, their Footbox (both 40D Nylon Ripstop OSMO w/ DWR) and Lining (both 30D Nylon Taffeta w/ DWR) fabrics are identical.

    What about the size? Reg or long?

    This mostly comes down to your height. They're designed for the users as follows:

    • Men's regular models: Men below 6' (183 cm)
    • Men's long models: Men above 6' (183 cm)
    • Women's regular models: Women below 5'6" (168 cm)
    • Women's long models: Women above 5'6" (168 cm)

    Besides height, I'd like to mention one more important thing here. When I was talking about most effective ways to heat a tent without electricity, one of my tips was to heat some rocks by the camp fire and place them inside your tent or sleeping bag (away from your stomach/kidneys).

    So, if you think you might use this tip and if you're borderline between Reg/Long models (e.g. if you're a 6' male or a 5'6" female) it might be a good idea to go for the long model.

    Other shared features of these bags

    They all come with the following. Nemo honestly offers all the features you can ask from a sleeping bag.

    Cotton storage bag and a compression stuff sack:

    Blanket Fold for comfort and temperature regulation:

    Thermo Gills to tune the ventilation and inner temperature for your taste:

    Bottom zippers offer even further ventilation adjustment. That's why these bags are also perfect for summer - there's always something you can do to increase the air flow inside when you feel too hot:

    Also as you see, all bags are left zippered.

    Integrated pillow pocket: This Nemo Fillo Inflatable Travel Pillow is compatible with this pocket so if you prefer buying this one you don't have to worry about its fit.

    Integrated stash pocket. Perfect if you like spending time with your smartphone right before sleeping:

    A very well thought out feature I like: Bottom of these bags are more waterproof (waterproofing isn't black and white! Some fabrics are more waterproof than others and vice versa). 

    Because of this fact, while sleeping, your feet (the closest body part to this highly wet part of tent) is always more prone to get damp and hence this more waterproof design around that area:

    If you're a cold, side (or tummy) sleeper looking for a backpacking sleeping bag, these designs are for you. Don't get a regular mummy sleeping bag!

    If you're also looking for an air mattress for camping, this post of mine can be a good read for you.

    Conclusion

    So, in short, if weight and packed size aren't huge concerns for you, absolutely get the Disco 15 (or Rave 15 for women). If the weight and size reductions are substantial for you, Riff 15 (or Jam 15 for women) would be a better choice. 

    I wouldn't really recommend 30 F models for any of these bags.

    Nemo Equipment Disco 15 Reg
    Nemo Equipment Disco 15 Reg
    (27)
    Buy on Amazon
    Nemo Rave 15 Reg Jade/Sea Glass
    Nemo Rave 15 Reg Jade/Sea Glass
    (16)
    Buy on Amazon

    Nemo Riff 15 Reg (Graphite/Magma)
    Nemo Riff 15 Reg (Graphite/Magma)
    (12)
    Buy on Amazon
    Nemo Jam Women's Down Sleeping Bag, 15 Degree, Regular
    Nemo Jam Women's Down Sleeping Bag, 15 Degree,...
    (7)
    Buy on Amazon

    Lastly, my other post how to sleep comfortably in a tent can be a good read for you.


    I hope this review was helpful for you to understand which sleeping bag would be the best choice for your needs. Feel free to ask me any questions, provide feedback and I'll be happy to respond in the comment section below if it's within my knowledge. 

    Thanks a lot for reading. Happy trails.

    Filed Under: Gear Tagged With: backpacking, bag, camping, sleep, sleeping

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    Hey, what's up? Canberk here. I try to approach outdoor gear from a scientific point of view. Here's more about me.

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